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I thought they’d like someone who knows how to fight. After all, aren’t they brainwashing-er-I-mean-”TRAINING” future Christian soldiers.
heh.
THE GAME – YOU JUST LOST
ignorant much?
This is both offensive AND stupid =P
So is religion.
And so are you.
Well put.
Gracias.
This^
You know, many people consider aetheism a religion…
Atheism: Once upon a time there was nothing. Nothing exploded.
And after you’ve explained, with analogs, symbolism and sock puppets just why it isn’t, they look at you and say, “But it has to be! There isn’t anything else!”
-_- Yes, yes. You’re so clever. Well, in high school you were, anyways.
I find that if nobody bothers you about church you wont go. BUT, if you have one of those weird Really Christian family’s you have 2 choices
1.Atheism, seems a bit extreme but for me it was this or 2.
2. Go to the stupid church until you move out and waste an hour of your life a week.
3. your actually a super christian person you hate me and im going to hell and you weird people out in your status posts on facebook.
counting fail
not all Christians hate, just the ones going to hell
*feeds closed minded troll* Mommy, can we keep it?
lol. They don’t have the mental capacity to do anything besides hate religion so you don’t need to buy them any toys or walk them!
Religion IS hate. Westboro Baptist, the Koran-burner wannabe in Florida, Jerry Falwell, the Catholic Church and their solution to world hunger being make more babies, the Crusades, the Dark Ages: all brought to you by the willingness to believe in something that doesn’t exist just because a bunch of people claim it true based on its own circular reasoning.
Are you an angry person by chance? Because you just seem so delightful!
LOL!
I have half the mind to take the weekend trip to Gainesville to bash that guy with a bat Daria.
Ive got friends there…. maybe that isn’t a bad idea.
Also, I’m shocked at the number of Christians here.
Also. It is totally brainwashing. Ive seen some children family members brainwashed by their ways. A child saying “Death to Obama!” Simply because her parents told her democrats are bad people who kill babies.
I’m all for religious tolerance, but please be tolerant back!
The sad thing is that 98% of Atheists are parrots who repeat whatever people say, and have no actual intelligence themselves.
Yeah, the way they repeat things taught in schools, as apposed to christians, who repeat everything they learn in church.
Yes, we all know EVERYTHING you learn is school is TRUE, right?
Pfaaa, since leaving school in 05 I’ve learnt that most of the things they taught, even at A-level, were either a. phrased to be boring, b. missing out massive chunks or c. just plain wrong…
And I’m an apatheist; I just don’t care. ^^
Okay “Godisdead”, what’s your rational proof that God doesn’t exist? Because there are volumes of ontological and teleological arguments in favor of a divine creator, but I’ve never heard a rational argument that it can’t exist.
Because you clearly have one. I’m sure you’re not some poser that goes around claiming to only trust logic and science before making a claim without a basis in either. That would be moronic and hypocritical.
All Muslims are terrorists. Hindus worship cows. All atheists are cold and unfeeling.
See I can generalize and make ignorant statements too…
WTF?
that is sooooooo gay… :/
meh…
There’s a guy like that at MY church. I don’t know why he doesn’t understand that punching your ex = NOT ALLOWED TO WORK WITH TODDLERS!
Honestly.
if he hit his ex, she probably deserved it. that doesn’t make him a bad guy.
Unless his ex was a toddler it doesn’t make much sense.
It’s not the age of the victim, it’s that this guy is not controlled enough not to physically attack people when he gets frustrated or angry.
Doesn’t matter that his ex may have attacked him with a knife…
Working with kids can take a lot of patience, and taking the details of the assault into account, they still may be unsure of his self control. There’s also liability to take into account. Hell, at my mom’s church, you have to pass screening in order to teach Sunday school, too. Just because you don’t get paid doesn’t mean it’s not a job. It makes perfect sense when you live in a litigious society.
It’s really sad to me that this logic had to be explained. Would you leave your kid with a stranger who’d been convicted of a felony crime? ANGER ISSUES are anger issues, period.
So… would you not trust your kids to be around a military person who’d killed a Talibani in the Middle East? After all, HE KILLED SOMEONE, OMG, he must be a bad person.
The fact that a person has a felony conviction means absolutely NOTHING out of context.
It means he was violent toward someone as an adult; which means he cannot use reasoning to deal with frustration. Children are all about frustraton. He cannot work with children. That he cannot understand the church’s position means that he hasn’t even taken the first step in dealing with his own issues. He cannot work with children.
I don’t want my kids around someone who thinks it’s acceptable to beat his wife. How do I know he doesn’t also think it’s alright to beat kids? With all the people who don’t have anger issues in the world, I think I can be picky on that one.
Reality replies: Verbal assault is not punishable by law, otherwise we’d all be in trouble here. THREATS are, as long as there are witnesses. Assault is never good, esp. if it was a charge that was upheld (ie, went to court or plead out and is on record). Think about it this way: would you leave your kid with someone you only know through church who said, “Hey, I have an assault conviction. But it TOTALLY wasn’t my fault.” You don’t know the details, but….do you really need to?
Well, maybe if he came before the congregation and told his story, and asked forgiveness for his sins, they might be enlightened to his particular case and not think him a risk. I think what he’s complaining about is that they just summarily turned him down without hearing his side.
There are too many cases of people who reoffend after they have asked for forgiveness. Where children are concerned you cannot take the risk.
Um, yeah, maybe you do need to know the details.
Well reality, if you have ever hit someone in your life after the legal age in your homelands specified mens rea, then you are a candidate for an assault charge. If someone is in a bar with his girlfriend, and another man starts to hitting on said girlfriend. the second man is kindly informed of the situation and asked to leave, but cotinues his advances on the girl. the situation grows to the point where the first man hits the second oncein the face, chest or even arm. Regardless of the situation, the first man is the criminal. Is he a bad man? Not in my books. You’re judgeing a siuation you know nothing about.
Children. Someone who fights in bars — in your scenario. Still not a good match… or argument.
Yeah, what they said. Little kids are frustrating- clearly this guy has the potential to lash out violently when frustrated/angry. It’s also a legal thing- if he did do something wrong and it was discovered that we (the church, that is) knew he had a criminal record of violence and still let him do it… well. You can imagine.
SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
Please don’t shout, we are not deaf.
You don’t watch The Simpsons much, do you?
It’s not Catflap’s fault. Vicarious left off the “Won’t” part and it’s “somebody” not… *you get my point*
I believe is doesn’t matter what your conviction is or how long ago, so this guy may be a liability but even a US citizen who was busted for a little weed in the sixties can’t volunteer EVER.
Possession of weed is not assault!!
I think thats the point Nik’s making. That no matter how little the charge, you still are not allowed to do certain work.
Just saw NOW!
stopthedrugwar.org
I used to work in this field, and I’ve known people to be cleared even if they have minor violations on their record, depending on what it was and how long ago. Someone busted for possession in the 1960s would probably be cleared. Anything of a violent nature (such as assault) would be enough to reject anyone’s clearance to work with children or vulnerable adults. If someone crosses the line of violence, even once, is too much of a risk to have working with a vulnerable population.
It depends. Sometimes these are things like bar fights ten years ago. If you’re talking an eighteen-year-old vs. a twenty-eight-year-old, the church may decide not to overlook that. Honestly, I think more should be left up to individual judgment and less be based on rosters and whatnot.
Oh, and I also don’t think a fight should be a life sentence never to work with kids again. And some of these ARE fights between adolescents. They should pay their dues, but I don’t think a lifetime excluded from any career in service or whatever is a fair punishment.
You’re probably right for the most part, but in this sue-happy society we live in, organizations have to make every effort to protect themselves. I agree that it’s not fair, but decisions like this are made by lawyers and insurance company risk management types.
This seems like a church WIN.
My church has instituted a “safe sanctuaries” program, and we screen all volunteers who might work around children. Also, everyone who has a key to the building. I’m in favor of it. (And I passed the screening.)
How would you feel about it if you hadn’t passed?
No; I’m not picking arguments. I’m curious, as my wife’s church is considering adopting the same policy as well.
If there is a desire to serve the church, then a person who doesn’t pass for working with others or holding a key can always mow the lawn, or run a phone tree, or clean up after meetings. There’s always something to do, after all.
Well, I wouldn’t let a church-guy get near MY Kids neither … Especially no catholics. You know … they “like” children.
Well aren’t you soooo clever.
Your bigotry is showing.
As long as the kids cook his dinner right THE FIRST time they should be fine. Geez, is that really so much to ask for?
stupid church why shouldn’t they let a violent man be around little kids
Just like that registered Sex offender down the block and NO ONE EVER thinks of him to babysit!
stupid church why shouldn’t they let a violent man be around little kids
Just like that registered Sex offender down the block and NO ONE EVER thinks of him to babysit!!
What a coincidence, I can’t make VBScript work either…
Depending on the nature of the assault I can see why the guy is miffed. A drunken bar fight in college doesn’t mean you’re not fit to be around children.
But I don’t really get why anyone would be disappointed about not being able to volunteer at VBS. Surely there are more entertaining things to do with your summer than help kids glue cotton balls to paper lambs.
You get to glue cotton wool to paper lambs at VBS?! Where do I sign?
lolwut? erm cotton and wool are NOT the one in the same, but nice attempt.
minus *the after not -.-
Maybe he’s of the opinion that life should consist of more than just staggering around in a constant search for the most entertaining diversion possible.
Win XD
well, i guess staggering was kind of the problem to begin with…
Or maybe, as a christian, he wants to repent for his past sins by doing good for others now. Not a christian myself, but I do understand that people of faith feel the need to do very good things to rid themselves of guilt for the bad things they have done.
That’s not exactly how it works for a lot of people, but okay… That’s more like Buddhism and Karma — where you do good things to negate the bad. In Christianity, you are supposed to be drawn to service because it is a righteous and loving way of life–to show compassion for fellow man. Your sins are supposed to be forgiven when you sincerely confess them to God and ask for that forgiveness, but living righteously is an embodiment of that sincerity and commitment. It really shouldn’t be about guilt. If it is about guilt for him, then I seriously question his motivation for volunteering. He could volunteer for something else easily.
WIN – finally, somebody gets it!
I didn’t see much sincere confession, just frustration for not getting his way… Oh Noes!
It’s all about those frosted animal crackers with sprinkles. I think all churches are required to buy that crap in bulk…
Hey, my church doesn’t have those – where can I get them?
THOSE. ARE. LOVE.
I think it depends on the person. People change, and Christianity is about forgiveness anyway. When a church won’t do it, I think that’s pretty sad.
One of the coolest guys I know at church was in prison for 20 years for some pretty horrible stuff. He’s not that person any more. For me to hold it against him would be wrong.
^^^ This. ^^^
I don’t understand how a faith with a CORE PRINCIPLE of forgiveness can spawn churches with such unforgiving people. I can see if someone in charge thought he was insincere or likely to do such again, but the probability seems low given that he’s volunteering to teach VBS.
I’m a Christian. Other Christians are why I don’t go to church. Of course, maybe that’s being hypocritical… since I’m avoiding them for being hypocrites?
I’m not a guy who says that the proper understanding of Hebrews 10:24-25 is that you need to be going to a church building every Sunday. I support the house church movement and believe there are many positives to it, even though I do attend a traditional church.
The problem is, if you’re not in Church regularly, where are you meeting with other Christians on a regular basis for teaching and edification, as is the clear admonition of the Hebrews passage and the example of the early Church?
I can’t speak for the person you were asking, but in my situation I do volunteer with my church youth group, I am involved in a college ministry, and I used to regularly attend a Bible study held by friends. (Only don’t go to that anymore because it’s the same night as the college ministry – I go on off nights though.) I don’t know if the previous commenter does any of that – but hopefully
Church school (or, as my district calls it, CCD) and attending Church are not the same thing. Where I live, we have CCD on Monday nights and Saturday mornings (depending on how old you are) instead of on Sunday. So it is completely possible to have been/be around other Christians for teaching without going to Church.
Regarding your first statement -It’s possible to believe in the importance of forgiveness and yet fail at practicing it. After all, if forgiveness was easy God wouldn’t have had to stress it’s importance. We’d all just be doing it naturally! I think we all have had the experience of wanting to behave in a certain way, adhere to a certain standard, but consistently failing to live it.
Secondly, if the Christians you’re around at church really do fail at the basic principle of forgiveness and it’s not something that’s a problem for you then you should be there with them. Be a good example and be prepared to help anyone in this area whenever the opportunity arises! Isn’t that one of the primary purposes of the Church?
It’s not about forgiveness or church participation. It’s one thing to welcome people who are known criminals, etc, into the church… it’s another to let them work in delicate areas where people (often people who are defenceless, like small children and the aged) are potentially at risk, and legal issues are at stake.
The guy I mentioned above isn’t allowed to work with small children, because of a violent history. It doesn’t mean he’s not allowed to come to church and be welcome and he’s certainly able to volunteer to do all sorts of things… just not working with children. Surely you can see the sense in that?
One assault conviction at any time int he past may not constitute a “violent history”. There are a heck of a lot of people who escaped that by the grace of God alone… or by being white.
And I don’t see the sense in it. I have two small children. I use my instincts when deciding how I feel about other adults and whether I want my kids alone with them. Not a single conviction.
I mean, it’s assault. Not child abuse. I only know one person convicted of assault, and he did what several other men I know have done: punched a guy in a bar. But his victim sued. Tough luck! I would have no worries leaving my kids with these guys who have all grown up, stopped drinking, and who are essentially different people.
We’ll be seeing you on the news, then!
Where did it say they didn’t forgive him? I totally missed that.
He’s not exactly being very humble, you think? I’ve met a lot of people who volunteer for a myriad of things for the wrong reasons, so just volunteering isn’t necessarily a declaration of sincerity. Actually, he’d prove it by accepting that decision and asking where else he could help.
They’re no necessarily judging his soul or anything, just deciding that he’s exhibited behaviors which might prove harmful to children, and there’s REALLY nothing wrong with that. He can be as butt-hurt about it as he wants.
Problem is, that society is set up in a way that they CAN NOT forgive certain things, because if the person re-offends, a lawyer can claim that as proof that the church itself is culpable for the individual’s actions.
Where culpable = thousands or millions of dollars that had been donated to the church in the expectation that it would go to the needy but is now buying the lawyer a third Porsche.
Exactly.
Because Churches have to carry insurance policies that cover injuries, etc, to the children in their care during these events. And insurance policies don’t care if you have become a changed person; they care about statistics.
It’s just not that hard to understand. It’s really not.
There’s a difference between forgiveness and trust. There can be forgiveness, but until there is a track record of change, trust should not necessarily be forthcoming.
I have known guys like you write about, too. Usually they do exhibit dramatic changes in attitude and behavior, often beginning long before they are released from prison. I would bet money that the guy you describe fits this model. He has probably established that he can be trusted over a period of years. I am right?
Trust, but verify.
Exactly, church fail…..
I am Christian and I am ashamed…..
Forgiveness is not necessarily forgetting, and it never said that the people of the church didn’t forgive him. There are consequences for his actions, and he needs to consider the well being of the church and the children, too. The church may not be able to allow him to volunteer legally, or maybe it would open them up to a huge liability. He wants to work VBS, but maybe there is something else he can do for the church – if he really wants to serve, he won’t demand to do it on his terms. I question his sincerity and commitment. I’m not ashamed of the church for this at all. After all, it’s REALLY not about him. Don’t the children deserve a teacher that’s not a gamble? Don’t the parents have the right not to worry about their children at VBS? It’s not about not forgiving him, and I agree with what others have said – that if he is sincere and truly wants forgiveness, he will act accordingly and try to reestablish trust. Even on a spiritual level, asking for forgiveness cannot simply be about empty words and going through the motions. Part of forgiveness is admitting you did something wrong, which he clearly doesn’t seem to think. He doesn’t seem very humble.
Who knows how recent the charge was? And he doesn’t seem to be humbling himself at all. Hard to forgive someone who doesn’t seek it in mind or action. In fact the way he brushes aside the assault charge seems to prove to me he doesn’t take it seriously. Maybe they interviewed him, too, and had questions about his sincerity. Who knows? No reason to unfairly judge the church!
An assault charge can be any number of things dealing with violence or a degree of violence. The guy in the post could be not telling the whole truth, for example if it was sexual assault. There are other factors here as to why the church won’t accept him doing this type of volunteer work. If the church found out he has an assault charge, how did they find out and why didn’t they want him working with children. I know of a number of churches that will allow convicted felons work with kids. The only ones they will not allow are those with sexual assault, sexual harassment, sexual misconduct, or those with a history of molestation.
Churches typically don’t run background checks on volunteers, so his information had to have been made available for another reason. Which could possibly mean he was a sex offender, who have to share this information with their neighbors and community by law.
some churches do screen volunteers. his church may be one that does.
I got arrested for common assault 7 years ago – it was self defence but as i did more damage retaliating I was the one that got charged.
Because of this I find it hard when applying for jobs, I have a degree for gods sake, I’m not a danger to anyone and it really irks me that because of this I’m not even considered for jobs.
I know how this dude feels!
I can understand this guy’s frustration, and to be honest it takes a certain sort of person to volunteer to help chase kids around and keep them in order.
Hell, for all we know, he punched some guy throwing rocks at little kids or something.
Well that’s odd, I thought the Bible taught, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”
Actually, the Bible encourages wise judgment:
[24] Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
(John 7:24 ESV)
The verse you’re quoting is actually in the context of hypocritical judgment. Jesus spoke those words while teaching that one shouldn’t be overly concerned with the sins of another person, when he hasn’t made any effort to eliminate similar sin from his own life.
Whenever I helped out in VBS, I never got any volunteer hours. LAME.
it isn’t about forgiveness or lack thereof. it’s about church policy, and possibly even the law. if the church policy states that anyone convicted of a felony cannot work with children, then they have to uphold that policy. They are not doing anything that a regular school or day care does not do, in the interest of protecting children. I’m sure other places of worship in other religions have similar policies concerning who can volunteer with children. Plus, if he’s on parole or probation, his activities may be specifically restricted. Even if he’s not, the church policy may actually be adherent to the law concerning who can work with children.
Forgiveness does not mean just letting someone do as they please. The church can forgive him and treat him like a dignified human being without violating policy. He can help out and do good in the church in a number of other ways–he can go to the soup kitchens, help the homeless, and what have you–but he cannot work with the children.
tl;dr
Charged != convicted. That’s kind of a strong policy.
If he’s been recently charged for assault then its sort of understandable.
But if it happened a long time ago, maybe he was trying to find someway to make amends for what he done by volunterally working for the church.
I’m a Christian, and it shames me to see alot of Church’s contradicting themselves, they teach forgiveness when they can’t even act it out themselves.
And I was like “Baby, baby, baby!” ;D
I’m sure you heard this one, but…
what’s the difference between a water bottle and puberty?